Post by Mel “Tarine” Tomago on Apr 13, 2024 17:42:45 GMT -5
Okay, so basically me and Meara were having a conversation which ended up drifting to the current Oni traits and how the other optionals might feel a little underwhelming compared to Demonic Might- and this spawned a few ideas on how to turn the others into something more generally useful while hopefully carrying the spirit of the originals.
Now I wouldn't call these polished since I'm writing this up using a discussion that happened yesterday- nor may there be any point to this since word around discord is that Onis may be getting a big overhaul in the future, meaning anything featured here might either already have a rework in mind or is being scrapped entirely… but there's no harm in sharing ideas that sounded fun at the time right?
(I was also given permission to include Meara's suggestions alongside mine, though I have expanded on them with my own thoughts.)
Honestly, here I don't know where to start since it's not a bad trait in principle. Something that plays with the way variants function is a good way of encouraging playstyle variety as far as I'm concerned. The issue however is with how little use it has due to how few debuffs work on a turn-based timer while also being classed as standard- since if we take it literally then the only thing it can be used on is Bleed, and that directly clashes with the other rules stating it can be used twice but cannot be used for to apply the same debuff. Now I believe people have worked under the assumption that it can also be used to apply an additional use of the Exhausting status but that still leaves it with only two types of variant to work with which does feel quite limiting compared to optional traits with more universal use. (There's also the debate on if it could be applied to the Poisoned status, since its status as a "standard" effect is a grey area due to most ways of dealing it coming from items, but I can't comment on that due to not knowing the most recent answer.)
Another issue arises when you consider that the status conditions tied to it are also tied to a need to deal above a certain amount of damage to trigger, and the sentiment shared with me was that it can be inconvenient to almost always have to expend more KP on the technique to even attempt to land something powerful enough have a decent chance of the variant proccing- since if we look at either a basic bleed or exhausting light technique, either the 20% power won't be enough to make bleed trigger if the opponent has even the slightest PL advantage or it would be exceptionally easy for opponents around the user's PL to fizzle which further limits the circumstances Curseweaver can be used under.
Right, now to the fun part.
There were two ideas cooked up for this one, both stick with making Oni the debuff Curseweavers they were born to be but take the idea in slightly different directions.
First up is Meara’s idea which went along the lines of giving Oni a one time use ability to force a debuff to proc regardless of how much damage the attack did as a sort of callback to Dabura’s stone spit being able to affect people regardless of their strength in comparison. Personally I do like this one as first of all it invites plenty of ways for an Oni to flavour their attack (exceptionally potent energy/life draining spells being among them), and may force an opponent to utilise other methods to avoid something that might not have been a concern when not combined with this trait. Though to avoid situations where someone freshly approved can slice a Super Saiyan open with their 1% Bleed I’d suggest also adding a PL requirement of either the user or the initial attack before reductions being anywhere between 60-80% of its target’s current PL.
As for versatility, the debuffs tied to damage threshold list is admittedly still limited, but even if we just stick to standard debuffs then even the idea of being able to somewhat control the opponent’s response in a fight if they wish to avoid the effect, or pushing additional negatives on them is something I can see being useful outside of just being a debuff-centric build.
Moving on to what was mainly my suggestion, the idea was to instead make them slightly easier to proc by applying a flat reduction to the damage thresholds required for them to trigger. To avoid the risk of creating something too strong, I believe a 5% reduction would be the safest option, as it allows the user some wiggle room when they’re working with extremely tight damage thresholds, especially when dealing with opponents with a PL advantage. I’d also say it can work as a weaker but still unique version of how some species have unlimited flat power boosts to techniques which can create a similar situation of making techniques that have an easier time beating thresholds.
Now this one's honestly alright as is, a boost that can be stacked on top of any number of other boosts is a pretty sweet deal as far as optionals are concerned. Though what feels strange about this is you can miss the chance to use a charge of it if you don't spend that boost before you hit the damage threshold that grants a refresh... which I wouldn't say is a super common thing among traits? I mean you can miss the opportunity to use something like Crane School or Radioactive Hetap if you're too hurt to be able to withstand the damage they deal to you as part of their effect, but in this case you can lose access to a charge completely for the rest of the thread and there's literally no way of recovering it after the fact if for whatever reason you weren't able to use it to respond to whatever took you over the threshold in the first place.
I wouldn't say I'm strongly campaigning for a rework here, but for the sake of fixing what could be a drawback to some that makes it lesser than the effectively infinite uses of Might I'd suggest something more along the lines of establishing that you gain a +10% to be added to a standard technique rather than it simply refreshing at the damage thresholds- with the additional stipulation that they cannot be stacked onto one technique nor can more than one be applied per turn (to avoid a massive boost stack on an Otherworld Training combo once the person hits 200%).
My suggested rework would look something like this:
Now I wouldn't call these polished since I'm writing this up using a discussion that happened yesterday- nor may there be any point to this since word around discord is that Onis may be getting a big overhaul in the future, meaning anything featured here might either already have a rework in mind or is being scrapped entirely… but there's no harm in sharing ideas that sounded fun at the time right?
(I was also given permission to include Meara's suggestions alongside mine, though I have expanded on them with my own thoughts.)
CURSEWEAVER
Usable twice per thread, extend the duration of an active Standard Technique debuff by 1 turn, cannot be the same debuff in a row.
Usable twice per thread, extend the duration of an active Standard Technique debuff by 1 turn, cannot be the same debuff in a row.
Honestly, here I don't know where to start since it's not a bad trait in principle. Something that plays with the way variants function is a good way of encouraging playstyle variety as far as I'm concerned. The issue however is with how little use it has due to how few debuffs work on a turn-based timer while also being classed as standard- since if we take it literally then the only thing it can be used on is Bleed, and that directly clashes with the other rules stating it can be used twice but cannot be used for to apply the same debuff. Now I believe people have worked under the assumption that it can also be used to apply an additional use of the Exhausting status but that still leaves it with only two types of variant to work with which does feel quite limiting compared to optional traits with more universal use. (There's also the debate on if it could be applied to the Poisoned status, since its status as a "standard" effect is a grey area due to most ways of dealing it coming from items, but I can't comment on that due to not knowing the most recent answer.)
Another issue arises when you consider that the status conditions tied to it are also tied to a need to deal above a certain amount of damage to trigger, and the sentiment shared with me was that it can be inconvenient to almost always have to expend more KP on the technique to even attempt to land something powerful enough have a decent chance of the variant proccing- since if we look at either a basic bleed or exhausting light technique, either the 20% power won't be enough to make bleed trigger if the opponent has even the slightest PL advantage or it would be exceptionally easy for opponents around the user's PL to fizzle which further limits the circumstances Curseweaver can be used under.
Right, now to the fun part.
There were two ideas cooked up for this one, both stick with making Oni the debuff Curseweavers they were born to be but take the idea in slightly different directions.
First up is Meara’s idea which went along the lines of giving Oni a one time use ability to force a debuff to proc regardless of how much damage the attack did as a sort of callback to Dabura’s stone spit being able to affect people regardless of their strength in comparison. Personally I do like this one as first of all it invites plenty of ways for an Oni to flavour their attack (exceptionally potent energy/life draining spells being among them), and may force an opponent to utilise other methods to avoid something that might not have been a concern when not combined with this trait. Though to avoid situations where someone freshly approved can slice a Super Saiyan open with their 1% Bleed I’d suggest also adding a PL requirement of either the user or the initial attack before reductions being anywhere between 60-80% of its target’s current PL.
As for versatility, the debuffs tied to damage threshold list is admittedly still limited, but even if we just stick to standard debuffs then even the idea of being able to somewhat control the opponent’s response in a fight if they wish to avoid the effect, or pushing additional negatives on them is something I can see being useful outside of just being a debuff-centric build.
SUPER CURSEWEAVER SUGGESTION 1
Once per thread, you may choose to remove the damage requirements on a Standard debuff, allowing the effect to trigger as long as the technique deals any amount of damage to the target. This can only be used if the user/initial attack before reductions is within 60/80% of the recipient's PL
Once per thread, you may choose to remove the damage requirements on a Standard debuff, allowing the effect to trigger as long as the technique deals any amount of damage to the target. This can only be used if the user/initial attack before reductions is within 60/80% of the recipient's PL
Moving on to what was mainly my suggestion, the idea was to instead make them slightly easier to proc by applying a flat reduction to the damage thresholds required for them to trigger. To avoid the risk of creating something too strong, I believe a 5% reduction would be the safest option, as it allows the user some wiggle room when they’re working with extremely tight damage thresholds, especially when dealing with opponents with a PL advantage. I’d also say it can work as a weaker but still unique version of how some species have unlimited flat power boosts to techniques which can create a similar situation of making techniques that have an easier time beating thresholds.
SUPER CURSEWEAVER SUGGESTION 2
Attack techniques launched by this character that would inflict a standard debuff can trigger this effect at 5% below the threshold listed. In the case of Merging techniques, the original technique must be initiated by this character. This effect also cannot be given to others by passing over Stasis techniques with the relevant variants applied.
(Possible alt version that specifies Fatigue's threshold is also reduced? Also clarifies that this effect can't be used on + upgrades.)
Attack techniques launched by this character that would inflict a standard debuff can trigger this effect at 5% below the threshold listed. In the case of Merging techniques, the original technique must be initiated by this character. This effect also cannot be given to others by passing over Stasis techniques with the relevant variants applied.
(Possible alt version that specifies Fatigue's threshold is also reduced? Also clarifies that this effect can't be used on + upgrades.)
SPECTRAL WRATH
Once per thread, you may add +10% to a standard technique. This refreshes once at 100%, and again at 200% damage taken. Healing cannot refresh the effect again.
Once per thread, you may add +10% to a standard technique. This refreshes once at 100%, and again at 200% damage taken. Healing cannot refresh the effect again.
Now this one's honestly alright as is, a boost that can be stacked on top of any number of other boosts is a pretty sweet deal as far as optionals are concerned. Though what feels strange about this is you can miss the chance to use a charge of it if you don't spend that boost before you hit the damage threshold that grants a refresh... which I wouldn't say is a super common thing among traits? I mean you can miss the opportunity to use something like Crane School or Radioactive Hetap if you're too hurt to be able to withstand the damage they deal to you as part of their effect, but in this case you can lose access to a charge completely for the rest of the thread and there's literally no way of recovering it after the fact if for whatever reason you weren't able to use it to respond to whatever took you over the threshold in the first place.
I wouldn't say I'm strongly campaigning for a rework here, but for the sake of fixing what could be a drawback to some that makes it lesser than the effectively infinite uses of Might I'd suggest something more along the lines of establishing that you gain a +10% to be added to a standard technique rather than it simply refreshing at the damage thresholds- with the additional stipulation that they cannot be stacked onto one technique nor can more than one be applied per turn (to avoid a massive boost stack on an Otherworld Training combo once the person hits 200%).
My suggested rework would look something like this:
SPECTRAL WRATH
You start the thread with a single +10% boost that can be applied to a standard technique. Additionally you will gain an extra use of this trait once when you hit 100%, and again at 200% damage taken. This can only be applied once per turn to any single technique, though can be stacked with other forms of power boosting unless stated otherwise. Healing and taking damage past these thesholds again will not cause this trait to reactivate.
You start the thread with a single +10% boost that can be applied to a standard technique. Additionally you will gain an extra use of this trait once when you hit 100%, and again at 200% damage taken. This can only be applied once per turn to any single technique, though can be stacked with other forms of power boosting unless stated otherwise. Healing and taking damage past these thesholds again will not cause this trait to reactivate.